Discoverer - Needs some Adjusting

  • The Discoverer class needs some adjustments, almost every one of their bonuses is countered by either a negative or a very specific zone of use.

    Let's look at the different class bonuses:


    COLLECTOR
    +25% mine production - Good at ALL points in the game, all players build mines and upgrade

    +10% energy production - Good at ALL points in the game, less powerplats/sats need to be built to run mines freeing up fields

    +100% speed for Transporters - Good at ALL points in the game. Lets Collectors both transport goods and farm planets with 2x Speed

    +25% cargo bay for Transporters - Good at ALL points in the game, see previous point but they need less ships which means less Deuterium spent

    +2 fleet slots - Good at ALL points other than immediate account creation. More standard fleet slots means more farming/trading.

    +2 offers - This one is debatable. The market is not really being used properly from what I've seen and heard from other players. This might end up Red or Green depending on how the market works out.


    GENERAL
    +100% speed for combat ships - Good at ALL points in the game. Faster attacks = more successful attacks since the target has less time to react.

    +100% speed for Recyclers - Good at MOST points in the game. Timing your recyclers isn't as imperative with this bonus since your only REAL competition for a floating field will be other Generals.

    -25% deuterium consumption for Recyclers - Good at MOST points in the game. See point above except it increases your profit margin for an attack

    A small chance to immediately destroy a Deathstar once in a battle using a light fighter. - Negligible at best. A good player doesn't launch on a Deathstar unless they were already going to destroy it. This will just soften losses on an attacker. Defenders might get a bit lucky, but this will more than likely NEVER swing a fight in either direction.

    +2 combat research levels - Good at ALL points in the game. +2 to each tech is amazing easily allows an already combat oriented class to excel even farther. In the early game you can't be touched by others players except Generals. In Mid/Late Game it'll significantly reduce your losses and mean you can out tech most non-General classes.


    DISCOVERER

    -25% research time - Good at SOME points in the game. Doesn't matter if you can finish a tech 25% faster if you can't afford to start the next research after. And until Late Game, when research starts taking multiple days, this will save a few minutes to a few hours at best.

    +400% gain on successful expeditions - Okay at Late/VERY Late game. Early game you don't have the ships to risk sending on Expeditions. At Mid/Late game you don't want to eat up fleet slots that could be farming planets / attacking players for a CHANCE at some loot. The RNG aspect of this bonuses eliminates most of the reward.

    +10% larger planets on colonization - Good at LATE game. Early/Mid game fields aren't an issue. It's not until much much later that this bonus will be felt. Also since this bonus does NOT apply retroactively, you'd have to abandon and recolonize in order to gain the bonus.

    Debris fields created on expeditions will be visible in the Galaxy view. - Negligible. People have to be sending expeditions for fields to appear. Even then, OTHER CLASSES can also harvest these fields even if they can't see them. Generals, for instance, can buy Pathfinders off the Marketplace and launch on any fields reported to them by another player (or blindly) WITH THE 100% BONUS COMBAT SPEED.

    +2 expeditions - Okay at Super Late Game where you have nothing better to do. Since these are simply a +2 maximum expedition slots, you're still tied down by the BASE numbers of fleet slots you have. Most players aren't going to want to send 5-7 Expeditions for a dice roll of loot when those slots could be used for active farming / attacking. You also need the extra ships to cover the +2 Expedition slots if you wanted to use them.

    +20% phalanx range - Okay at Late Game. This will probably amount to +10-12 range for most players. But requires a moon and spending hundreds of millions of res on Lunar Bases and Phalanx, not to mention the build time, before you'll see any real benefit from this.

    75% loot from inactive players - GOOD at Mid/Late game, EXCEPT that you get countered by the other classes. Both General (using Pathfinders from the marketplace) and Collector (bonus Cargo speed) can out fly you to targets. The extra loot is negligible if all/most of the targets are empty when you arrive.

  • 10% larger planets on colonization

    Most servers have extra 25 oe 30 fields for everyone, which makes this only a minor advantage


    -25% research time

    Many recent servers have double research speed for everyone, which makes this worthless


    +2 expeditions

    But no fleet slots to use them, which makes this worthless


    +400% gain on successful expeditions
    Is good, but is less good on any server faster than 1 speed as expedition time does not scale with server speed.


    With the right server setting Discoverer is OK, but with real server setting it is not

  • With the right server setting Discoverer is OK, but with real server setting it is not

    Exactly, that's why I made this post in the suggestions thread. I'm hoping it receives some attention (both as input from other players, as well as notice by the devs) so that the classes can be adjusted. I would MUCH RATHER have Discoverer be buffed up a bit as opposed to the other two being nerfed.


    My suggestions would be:

    Change the +2 Expedition Slots to be +2 FLEET slots but let them be for Expedition ONLY. This way even Fleeters who NEVER do them might consider it since they aren't losing out on Base Fleet Slots. So you might have (Comp Tech / Officer) Fleet Slots, 2 Expedition Fleet Slots with (Astro Rank) Maximum Expeditions allowed. The lower maximum but NOT consuming regular slots seems like a good change.


    Toss out the Phalanx Range Bonus - Replace with 25-50% Reduced "explore time". This would be the minimum 1 hour time spent "exploring" reduced down to between 30-45 minutes. The Phalanx Bonus isn't really that great as most alliances will have the majority of galaxies under watch regardless of a small boost in range. Most solo players probably wouldn't want to launch on a target an extra 10-12 slots further away due to increased flight time. The reduction in the Hold/Explore time, in combination with the above possible +2 Fleet rework, would mean MORE expeditions being done overall which would also help the +400% bonus feel more worthwhile.


    Change so ONLY Discoverer's can launch Pathfinders on Harvest Missions- The fact that any class can launch on the fields, and Generals can do it at TWICE the speed of the Class that manufacturer's the ship, feels more like a bug/oversight than an actual intended feature.


    -25% Research SPEED Changed to -% Research COSTS: Obviously this would need to be done VERY carefully. But say a 10% Reduced Cost would be rather helpful in all stages of the game. 10% might be a little much, but it helps balance the 'guaranteed' res intakes the other two classes receive vs the Discoverer. Speed, as mentioned above, feels rather useless as a lot of servers have increased research speed, but also it doesn't matter how FAST you can research if you still need 1 week to gather the res (especially if General and Collector ARE gaining the res faster and can start the same research in 5 days vs you needing 7 days)

  • well, i don't see any of active player would choose this class unless they're playing account in a supportive way.


    this is my point of view of it. (personally, i'd go for collector, but well, will pick this for support account)


    shop Items are found via expedition. - more expedition = higher chance of finding stuff.

    ->hope the 400% boost would also apply in other findings in the expedition, like DM and ships.

    ->i've seen a guy that send expedition during the day. seems like DM farming. guess it does work as it's been going on for months.

    ->perhaps.. shorter expedition time? other classes get the fleet speed boost, so why not apply the boost into expedition time?


    -25% research time is decent and works out good when researches takes long tim complete, like Astrophysics.

    i'd say cheaper version of technocrat but why not?


    20% phalanx range - epic.

    well, instead of struggling w/ upgrading moons, it'll save the need of building extra lunar base later on.

    and as i said, supportive playing style.


    - 75% loot from inactives

    not all inactives are defenseless though many tends to lvl them out using ipms.

    some uni have probe storage so speed doesn't really matter.

    it's not like everyone signs in at the same time as server runs 24/7 unless something happens so it's hard to say someone outrun you w/ the speed.

    Change so ONLY Discoverer's can launch Pathfinders on Harvest Missions-

    this one, i like it.. pathfinder may help people to harvest DF right after the combat like 'reapers' but not after fleet returns.


    well, like HST research, things will be adjusted once it gets updated, even when the new things are in place.

  • shop Items are found via expedition.

    This isn't a Discoverer class benefit, but a benefit of the Pathfinder ship. Any of the classes can find items if they're using one. However, it's also a double edged sword as it isn't EXTRA loot, but an event that REPLACES an expedition result. I'm not sure if it only replaces negative/neutral results, or can also replace positive results. Also these items can be kind of worthless, i.e. finding Bronze MOONS shot items on a bonus % DF Uni (such as Yildun or Cosmos) is rather useless since it would be MORE expensive than simply finding someone to crash a shot into you, especially if you already have full moons. I'm going to start an expedition log today to try and map out my findings over a period of time to help reestablish the expedition numbers and result chances.


    like DM and ships.

    I do THINK that it applies to Ships. So far I DON'T think it applies to DM. I'm still working on compiling a list and comparing it to the old Expedition Calculator results.


    25% research time is decent

    It's not that this is BAD, it's just that it's not that GOOD. The boost only really helps in the later stage of the game when technologies take a long time. The problem, at least from what I've experienced and the experience of others players I've spoken to, isn't how long the research takes itself, but the lack of resources needed to start the next one. It's great that you finished Computer Tech 19 in 3 days instead of 4 days, but if you don't have the 210m Crystal and 315m Deuterium to start Computer Tech 20, then you'd almost have been better off with the longer research time to give you more time to get the resources you need. Otherwise your Research window is just empty, which 100% negates the bonus. The cost decrease would help you KEEP that research going NON-STOP which feels like it would fit much better both thematically and utility wise.

    20% phalanx range

    Let's look at this a little closer. What's the REALISTIC maximum phalanx someone is going to build before the costs get exorbitant? The bonus range doesn't even equal a full upgrade (which would call for the next tier of lunar base) until Phalanx level 11, and then it's +1 range over Phalanx 12. This seems like it's going to realistically save maybe 1 Lunar base and 1 Phalanx Upgrades overall. Again, it's not a BAD bonus, but my reason for this post is that a lot of the abilities for Discoverer are WEAK compared to the other classes. You mentioned the Discoverer class being more of a "Support Class", and I can kind of see your point there. But at this point, you'd be far better off picking Collector and using all the bonus res to cover the cost of that 1 lunar base and 1-2 phalanx upgrades because after that you're STILL getting those bonuses. The Phalanx Bonus has a very hard ceiling where as the other classes bonuses do not, they can continue to scale throughout ALL points of the game.


    75% loot from inactives

    While that's true, that would mean that General still has the advantage over the other 2 classes with their speed. Probe storage would just mean that the Discoverer can get the resources in 1 wave instead of 2. But it would still be the exact same cost in terms of Deuterium (the biggest factor in using Probes to raid). With the probes being extremely fast, you're essentially saving maybe 30 seconds per target, which YES can be a big deal in terms of probe farming. However, this doesn't seem like a large enough difference to balance out the advantages that the other two get over Discoverer against inactives on the majority of servers.


    things will be adjusted once it gets updated

    Absolutely! Please don't think of this thread as me just bitching and complaining. I'm simply voicing my feedback, as well as offering ideas on how to help fix said feedback. At this point it really feels like Discoverer would most efficiently be used at the very start of an account by a Miner/Turtle, you'd get ZERO bonuses besides saving a few minutes on research, then capitalize on that bonus 10% fields until the majority of your colonies are setup, then switch to Collector so all those bonus fields work as extra income for you in the far late game. If you're a Fleeter, more than likely you're not that concerned about planet fields and you'll simply go General from start to end.

  • A little adjustment can change everything.
    Just add global frequency coefficient to expedition results.
    Let me explain this;

    global frequency coefficient = ln( 1.718 + expedition richness   )
    expedition richness = ( #ofactiveplayers x expedition point limit ) / total expedition points sent by all players in last 12 hours

    So lets assume 1200 players are currently active,
    and top player has 160k points. so expedition point limit is 6000 points. explained here

    Also assume that all players sent 1.200.000 expedition points total worth of fleet in last 12 hours.

    expedition richness = 1200 x 6000 / 1.200.000 = 7
         
    global frequency coefficient = natural logarithm(1.718 + 7 ) = 2.164


    All prizes gonna multiplicated with 2.164
    Another example;
    Only a few player sent to expedition in last 12 hours and total expedition points is
    12.000 instead of 1.200.000.

    expedition richness = 1200 x 6000 / 12.000= 700

    global frequency coefficient = natural logarithm(1.718 + 700 ) = 6.55 prize is quite high now but not causing any unbalanced situation.


    This will encourage people to send to expedition since prize will be higher as long as fewer people explore the deep space.
    There will be more alien and pirate fights and more DF, expedition going to became more important so do discoverer class.


    The post was edited 1 time, last by A_D_Y ().

  • Stop doing s**t in bermuda like wtf...i am doing exp every day and you change it and you aren't saying anything about that

    That's kinda the point of a TEST server. And they mentioned the change a day in advance. Also, why are you complaining when it was a massive buff for exp loot?

  • So when Leda and Cosmos came out I made a collector and discoverer account. With my collector account I stalled out on Leda around rank 200-300 until ultimately shut it down to refocus on Cosmos.

    With my Discover account I very rapidly shot into the top 100 and have been slowly advancing from top 40 to top 30.

    BOTH accounts have been played fairly passively with a large emphasis on defenses and mines.

    Here are the differences between how the two accounts were played:

    1. Col. The collector account relied on strong mines for an early economic boost and developed based on optimal mining output.
    1. Dis. The discoverer account leveraged the fact I needed a fleet for expeditions and began the early game with a series of raids against nearby empires as soon as the ability to make small cargos and light fighters was achieved. It then focused entirely on astrophysics 1 which is the real beginning of a discoverer's empire. In doing so espionage was heavily researched which gave me an early game advantage in it.

    2. Col. The collector continues to layer on defenses and mines from start to finish.
    3. Dis. The discover immediately divided it's fleet into the maximum number of expeditions and started running as many expeditions as possible.

    _______________

    So why did the Discoverer account surpass the collector so quickly? Simple. I feel like you're underestimating the 4x resource returns. Yeah they are RNG and less consistent. But they're good. Having a fleet bring back 1 million+ resources in a single trip at a stage your mines on your main planet are barely outputting 1 mil a day. That's huge.

    The 4x dark matter is a really big deal too for an empire that is constantly running max expedition slots.

    Discoverer brings fleeting to more passive/defensive players. It also is great for free players who don't usually buy much if any Dark Matter.

    ________________

    I'm not necessarily saying the Discoverer is optimally balanced for every player and playstyle and that no tweaks/adjustments are needed. Certainly cheaper moonshots don't seem a horribly game breaking perk.

    But they are not a bad class. They can be very fun/powerful if played right.

  • i am discoverer on bermuda and they have lower eco settings...i can only say that i have 7 exp and today in 1 wave i got 130m metal, about 20mil res i got from finding ships, 1 gold moon chance, 1 pirates (lost 15m and from df i got 30m res)


    I lost 1 time my fleet (200m points) and i made like...100 expeditions from 1.12. Untill now 3.12.......

  • After playing with Discoverer a bit more, I think I need to rescind my original statement of it being a 'weak' class.


    It IS a 'weak' class in the EARLY Stage of a universe, where the General SHINES and Collector does pretty well.

    Now that I'm closer to the Mid-Stage of Universe (where I have enough fleet to actually send out 6 full expeditions, as well as replace any ships lost to pirates/aliens), it feels FAR FAR stronger than in the beginning.


    It definitely feels like a "snowball" like class. As in it starts weak and small, but begins to pickup momentum getting stronger and larger with time and dedication.